025. Craig Constantine: Full transcript

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Movers Mindset podcast. These are the public episodes, but do you want to hear more? Become an insider for access to extended guest conversations, follow-up episodes with your questions, and other deep dives. Visit moversmindset.com/insiders. Thanks for listening.

Kristen: Hello, I’m Kristen Swantek.

Craig: And I’m Craig Constantine.

Kristen: And this is Movers Mindset. [00:00:30] This week, you might notice the episode is a little different. I’m sitting down to interview Craig. You know him as the host of the podcast, but Craig is also the mastermind behind the scenes. We’re talking everything Movers Mindset, how it started, where it’s going, and what the vision is. In a reversal of roles, welcome, Craig.

Craig: Thanks, Kristen.

Kristen: So Craig, how did this podcast come about? Why Movers Mindset?

Craig: Okay, can I interrupt you first and say, who are you?

Kristen: Right, who am I?

Craig: Who am I? I don’t know. Who are you? I’m not doing song references. [00:01:00] I’m not doing who are you, so Kristen Swantek is probably the single most important person on the team, including myself on the team. Kristen’s job behind the scenes is to make sure that everything gets done and that the raw audio files get sent out for editing, that they come back, that we review them to make sure that we haven’t left the wrong parts in. She manages our production schedule, our publishing schedule. At the moment, she actually does most of the publishing, so this whole thing works only because Kristen is kind enough to put time into the project, so thank you very much, Kristen, for putting all [00:01:30] of the time and sweat and tears into it.

Kristen: You’re welcome.

Craig: That explains who Kristen is. Why is Kristen here? Do you want to do that one or do you want me to do it?

Kristen: This episode is inspired by an episode from Mike Rowe’s podcast called the Way I Talked About The Way I Heard It, where he sits down with his producer and they talk about the podcast and how it happens, and all the behind the scenes stuff that they have to deal with.

Craig: Right, so that’s why we’re here today. so that’s like the last step of your question which is [00:02:00] what’s the story, where does the podcast come from, leading up to us sitting down today. Okay, so the way it all started was I have AD, probably HD attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and I had this idea when I was listening to somebody else’s podcast. I’m not naming names. and I tend to start at the beginning, so I started at the beginning of a multi-hundred list of podcasts, and they were so bad. I was laying on the floor just in agony listening to these horrible things, and [00:02:30] I thought why doesn’t somebody convert these to text so that you could just skim them or search them? And then I thought, well, if you’re going to do that, then you could also translate it into multiple languages, and then you could put up a forum and collect. And we wound up with the project which originally was called Parkour, They Said.

Craig: And the idea was to collect writing from people around the world, convert it into multiple languages, and just share thoughts that way. That turned into, I discovered, it’s actually really hard to write, and not only that, people know that it’s [00:03:00] really hard to write and nobody wanted to write. Some people wrote things and some of them were really good things, and that made me really happy, and then I thought, all right, let’s make a little easier. And somebody, Nick Anastasia, said, “Why don’t you just do Skype calls, dude, and record the Skype calls, transcribe the Skype calls, send the … “

Craig: So that’s what we did. I did a bunch of Skype calls with people and I sent them off for transcription, for professional transcription, and then I sent the transcripts to the person that I talked to and they would edit them, download it, and that was producing content on the site. And then somebody else said, “Dude, you’re like a half an inch from just having a podcast.” [00:03:30] And we thought, how hard could that be?

Kristen: Famous last words.

Craig: Turns out, it’s actually really hard. So the podcast really came about me kicking and screaming the whole way, literally saying to myself and to my wife, Tracy. Behind every good man, there’s a woman rolling her eyes. I said, “Don’t do this. Don’t start a podcast. It’s gonna eat your life.” And … yes. So we started the podcast because it actually is the least hard way to share conversations with people, is to just sit down and record a conversation. [00:04:00] So that’s kind of like the short form of the really long story. That story started … it’s three years ago, is when we started with the writing idea, and that brought us to here.

Kristen: So then what inspires you to keep going? Now we’re at roughly episode 22, 23? Somewhere in there. It’s been three years, Craig.

Craig: Yeah, it’s been three years. And I love the part where people ask this, and we really don’t know what number we’re on because it depends what you mean. There are many more episodes that have been recorded than are released, and we don’t know exactly when they come out. So we’re something in the [00:04:30] 30s.

Craig: And why do I keep doing it? For the same reason that I started doing it. This is not hyperbole. I find myself in the most interesting conversations. I actually literally have multiple friends who glommed onto conversations that I was having, and then after the conversation ended, I started up a conversation with somebody else, and like, friends for life. And everybody knows, conversations are awesome, and this is just my excuse for getting to go to travel places and talk to people [00:05:00] and have cool conversations, and I love doing it.

Kristen: So when you sit down with a guest, how do you decide what to talk about?

Craig: I’m so-

Kristen: As I’m finding the struggle right now.

Craig: I’m So Meta, Even This Acronym. I was talking about having a running gag that’s a TV reference, so we’re gonna give away some sort of bonus prize. No, I’m just lying through my teeth. Some sort of bonus prize, whoever can come up with the actual sources for all of the little lines I drop. So that’s your first one. I’m So Meta, Even This Acronym. What did you ask me? You asked me, what’s the hardest [00:05:30] part about sitting down with you?

Kristen: No, how do you determine what to talk about with guests?

Craig: Oh. Oh, okay, so this turns out that I really talk.

Kristen: I know.

Craig: It turns out that sitting down and actually talking someone into talking is really a skill. So it became obvious that when I sat down and talked to people, I’m able to talk enough that it makes them want to talk, and then I’m able to listen enough [00:06:00] to give them the space to answer. So I really generally don’t know what we’re gonna talk about. I mean today we kind of have a little bit of a list, but Kristen showed it to me and I said, “No, I don’t want to know.” So I often ask them an obvious question like, “So your famous for being the person who did the first triple cork on concrete.” And then that’s an obvious thing to talk about.

Craig: And then that kind of gets them to talk about maybe the journey that led up to that, or maybe the 15 times they tried and it didn’t work, and I just sort of pay attention to what they want to talk about, and see what they want to [00:06:30] not talk about, is actually also really important, to not try to push them toward things that they don’t want to talk about.

Kristen: So then how do you determine who to interview?

Craig: Who to interview? Yeah. Partly … oh, that’s so complicated. All right. So one level, it’s just people I want to talk to. I really want to talk to so-and-so, and, “Hey, would you want to sit down?” It is really hard to get people, to get their schedules to line up to get a chance to actually do an interview. So there’s a limit to who you can talk to, but [00:07:00] mostly it’s people that I just want to talk to somebody. Then the next level up is, there is an idea in my head about what we’re doing here. I know you’re gonna ask me this later too. There is an idea, and I’m often thinking, okay, there’s six people that I could get to next July at this event that I’m going to, and then that helps me decide, all right, I probably should not interview that person, ’cause I can see them later, or we’ve talked to them or somebody like them.

Craig: So then after I have this list of who I want to talk to, I tend to aim toward people that I think [00:07:30] would be interesting in moving the project toward where I think it’s going. And then sometimes the people who are insiders actually get asked, “Who do you want us to interview?” And I’m not gonna drop any names, but people have basically asked for completely insane interviews, and I’m just like, “All right, we’re putting that one in the hat for later.” But some of them are also people that I have been suggested that I talk to, and those I think are really fun because usually I know people, and then I say, “Do you want to do an interview?”

Craig: And some of them now [00:08:00] are getting to be, “Hey, you should go talk to this person.” I don’t know who they are at all, and then we have other people on our team who go do some research on them, and then I try to have a conversation from scratch. And that’s even harder than just doing an interview.

Kristen: So you mentioned that initially this project was called Parkour, They Said, and now it’s not. So do you want to share that story of how that happened?

Craig: How it happened was, I literally racked my brain for four months every day. I had a spreadsheet in Google Sheets, [00:08:30] which had 350 records in it, and it was a grid of a name that I would think of, is the .com version available? ‘Cause pro tip kids, don’t ever use .world domains. Second column was, is there something else on Google that was confusingly similar, and just columns, and for four months, I searched until I came up with Movers Mindset and went, oh my goodness, that actually works as a name for this delusion that I have. You didn’t mean how I changed the name, you want to know why I changed the name?

Kristen: Yeah, why the change of name? Yeah.

Craig: So the reason that we changed the name, I changed the name, was I had a conversation … again, I’m [00:09:00] not gonna name names … a conversation with someone who I consider a really inspiring person, but also somebody who’s opinion I really value, and he and someone else next to him said, “We’d really like to do more things with you, but we can’t because you have the P word on your project.” And I went, “Oh yeah, that’s actually a really good point, it’s not really about parkour.” And then I went off for literally a year, thinking about [00:09:30] why do I have that word on there? And the short short answer is, it was originally called ParkourTheySaid.world, and the reason I put the parkour word on there was so when you searched for parkour in Google, it came up on the list.

Craig: It really wasn’t about parkour. But like any journey, I didn’t know what I was doing when I started. I was like oh, let’s start here, and pick a spot and go. So when I went, should I take the P word off, I started talking about the P word over and over and over, and other people would talk about the P word. I’m sorry, world, I apologize if that’s a thing. I wanted to just move away from it because it [00:10:00] pigeon-holes me into a particular type of movement. So even aside from the parkour versus ADD versus free-running splits, just saying parkour means that people think, “Oh, that’s a movement activity.” And it can’t be martial arts, it can’t be dance, ’cause parkour clearly is not martial arts or dance. There’s crossover, but they’re different.

Craig: So when I started actually thinking about all right, how do I take the parkour word off of the project, then I realized that actually this project is about more than just parkour, [00:10:30] it is really literally about movement. It is literally about the philosophies that underpin individualism, human flourishing, personal freedoms. These things are all very important to me, and that’s actually what’s inside the project. So the Movers Mindset, it isn’t like a mantra that we have printed out, but the project Movers Mindset is about pursuing, for each person themselves to pursue and dig into, why do you move, what does it mean to move, what are the philosophies, both [00:11:00] of physical movement and philosophies of thought, and Philosophy with a capital P, that you are using, and how do you think?

Craig: And that’s what the project is, and the more I thought about that, I’m like well, why would the parkour word be on there at all? And that’s what caused the change, and it was kind of like rubbing a bandaid off. I was like oh, we have to change the domain name, we have to everything. And actually the first 11 or 12 episodes start by saying, “And this is Parkour, They Said.” It sounded like a clever idea, and no it was not the panda meme with the, “Try Parkour, They Said, it’ll be fun, they said.” That’s not [00:11:30] where it comes from. I didn’t steal it from the meme. The meme was there first, but that’s not where I got it, but it was a bad choice, and you learn.

Kristen: So going off of that, that Movers Mindset is more about the philosophy and your mindset behind it, can you unpack a little bit about the project’s vision, where you see it going?

Craig: My day-to-day mindset is denial. It’s like my mom and dad used to get lost in the car, and my dad would get mad and go, “What state are we in?” [00:12:00] This is pre-GPS, but as if you could actually not know what state, my mom would go, “Denial.” That actually would happen. So my mindset. I spend a lot of my time … I think everybody does this. I spend a lot of time wondering, what should I do? Should I go for a run? Or maybe you’re thinking, should I watch TV, what should I watch, should I read a book? What do you literally do next with the next minute?

Craig: And I found that I was spending a lot of time on the Internet, it’s not a bad thing. I spent a lot of time on the Internet looking for [00:12:30] inspiration. Or maybe I had an idea, and then I’m looking for well, what would the nuts and bolts actually be if I wanted to do that and how do I do it? And then I go look for that. So I was using the Internet a lot, and I wasn’t actually using other people, and this was at a time when I was still doing martial arts and I hadn’t yet found parkour or Art du deplacement and started moving the way that I move now.

Craig: And I was looking for inspiration. And I didn’t realize it at the time, but this project is specifically about creating a source for people to find that inspiration. So the podcast [00:13:00] episodes, the podcast is just the public side … really I think of it as the marketing side, the idea is to make the project visible by putting the public podcasts out. But the real meat and potatoes, what I think is the really cool part, is what we call the Insiders Program, where these people can get together and actually talk. See, podcasting’s one way. Like I’m talking to you, and not you, Kristen, I’m talking to you, dear listener. You can’t talk back, right?

Craig: I mean maybe you can put comments somewhere, but you can’t actually have a conversation like Kristen and I are having a conversation. And the idea was to create this space. So [00:13:30] Movers Mindset is about creating a community of people who can get together, even though we do it digitally over the Internet for now. One of our dreams is to have it be physical too. But to help people get together and share ideas and share inspirations and try to … I talk a lot about the signal to noise ratio on the Internet and in social media spaces. So a lot of spaces on the Internet, there’s no signal, it’s all noise. And that could be good, you can use filters and Google and things to find interesting things in the noise, but I wanted a place where it was [00:14:00] all signal and no noise. And that’s what I’m trying to create with the community that’s underneath or inside of the Movers Mindset program.

Kristen: So you mentioned social media, and I know you. I know-

Craig: Ooh, can we do the rant? Can we do the rant now?

Kristen: Yeah. Do you want to?

Craig: No. I do not want to do the rant. I’m gonna try, and I’m gonna, okay, I’m gonna take my rational pill. Get off my lawn. No. So my rant about social media is, and I have tempered it over a few minutes, that [00:14:30] the difficulty with social media is that it is a stream. And in some cases it’s actually a fire hose, and I forget where the reference was, it’s like trying to take a sip out of a fire hose, which is a bad idea, don’t do it. And everybody is perfectly aware that BookFace and InstaJunk and TweetBot and all these things, that … I just don’t want to name drop, like go buy your own advertising … the reason those things are interesting is because you can dip in.

Craig: Right? Open up Instagram, the 12 people that you follow, you can get inspiration [00:15:00] from the things that they’ve shot. Same thing with Twitter, you can use for communication. Everybody knows how to bend social media to do what they want, but social media in and of itself is dysfunctional. And I forgot to look up the gentleman’s name … we’ll put it in the show notes, we have to put it somewhere … there is a gentleman who did a TED Talk, and he said something to the effect of … I’ll try to do the quote as best I can … It is, “Our society cannot survive if, in order for two people to communicate, [00:15:30] it has to be facilitated by a third person who wants to manipulate them.”

Craig: Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. I mean, that’s how social media works. But we all know this. You know you don’t pay for Facebook. I don’t pay for Facebook, and I’m on Facebook. Nobody pays for it. Of course somebody pays for it. It costs millions of dollars to run the server [inaudible 00:15:51] to run this. Oh, we’ll just add advertising. Advertising is the biggest mistake we ever made in the entire history of the Internet. And it brings in a third party. So Facebook [00:16:00] has to pay the rent. They have to pay the people who work for it. How do they do that? They sell advertising. That means that we all are the product.

Craig: And we all know this. This is not my rant. We all know this is what’s wrong with social media. But you know what does work? The old … shout out to Mark Toorack … the old American Parkour forums. These work. We all love to look at it like, “Oh man, remember the day when … ?” But those forums function. You went on there, what was on there? A bunch of other people who wanted to talk about parkour and nothing else. What is on the private spaces like [00:16:30] Stack Exchange where you go in and you’re exchanging questions and answers? There are these communities that do exist. The problem is not that the Internet is broken, the problem is just, people have no choice but to use … and now I’m talking about people who are in the movement space with me … they have no choice but to try and use Facebook, and … oh, he said it … Twitter and Instagram and these other media, to try and get your inspiration.

Craig: I don’t know about you guys, but I open up Facebook. If it moves on my screen, I scroll. The instant it moves, I scroll, because the ads move, right? [00:17:00] Now, actually in my world, I have a plugin installed, that nothing moves on my screen. But in general, if it moves, you scroll past it. It has gotten to the point where things that move no longer catch your attention, ’cause the advertisement moves. So the whole point that I’m trying to make is, I’m not saying rage quit social media. I did except for Facebook. I can’t leave Facebook. My family is on Facebook. My mom is 70, she’s on Facebook, and that’s as much as she can handle. I have cousins that are on Facebook. You can’t leave Facebook. It’s the party you have to stay in.

Craig: But you should not be trying [00:17:30] to use social media to find your inspiration. You use it for communication. You use it for, we had an earthquake, we need to mark a million people safe in 30 seconds. Social media can do that. We need to organize a demonstration and go around the government. Twitter can do that. These things are tools. They work. But you can’t, I don’t think, successfully use them to be your source of inspiration. You get that inspiration from your mentor or the person that you talk to at a jam, or your life partner, your wife, your girlfriend, whatever. And so that’s my rant on social media.

Kristen: Real quick [00:18:00] want to name drop. It was … I’m going to pronounce this wrong.

Craig: Awesome. We should have a global computer network.

Kristen: It was Jaron Lanier?

Craig: Yeah. Well no, if you’re gonna go like Lanier, it doesn’t help, it’s Lanier, I think. L-A-N-I-E-R. Lanier?

Kristen: Yeah.

Craig: Yeah. Jaron Lanier. Yeah, it’s a TED Talk from him a few years ago.

Kristen: If you want to look it up-

Craig: Great TED Talk. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Kristen: … it’s called, How We Need to Remake the Internet-

Craig: Yep. Yep.

Kristen: … if you want to look it up.

Craig: Yep.

Kristen: Is there anyone that you draw inspiration from, or places [00:18:30] you go to learn to talk to people for these interviews?

Craig: That’s a good question. Yeah, how did we miss that?

Kristen: It is hard.

Craig: Yeah, I’m actually like see, it’s really hard to sit there with a microphone and…. Originally I thought, two people having a conversation, I can do that, so we’ll just get microphones and we’re done. No. It’s really hard. So it turns out that there are people … imagine this, who are really good at this, and one of them is a guy named Cal Fussman. C-A-L F-U-S-S-M-A-N. Cal Fussman is amazing. [00:19:00] Most of the interviewing that he has done has been him doing interviews for pieces he was writing, but I’ve heard several interviews of both him interviewing people and people interviewing him, and it’s just like a font of great ideas about literally how to ask questions, like how to use your mouth to say things which the other people will interpret as a question, which is actually not that easy, and what kinds of questions work and how to ask a question to get a yes or no answer, because sometimes you want that.

Craig: Sometimes you want that kind of mechanistic [00:19:30] aspect. So I’ve been diving into that. I also love listening to other podcasts. I’ve been through thousands of them. I listen to them sped up. And I’m not gonna name … I listen to ones that I think are horrible because it reminds me of like, don’t ever do that, don’t ever do that, kind of thing, and I listen to ones that are really good, ’cause I enjoy listening to how the things flow. I particularly love Mike Rowe’s … not just the way he enunciates, and you can’t duplicate his voice, no, that’s his voice, but the way that he [00:20:00] puts the story together, ’cause he writes the stories that he puts together. So the idea of crafting a storyline as part of the interview that you’re doing, and that led me to listening to other people talk about how to empathize with people who aren’t present, which is extra hard.

Craig: So when I’m interviewing people, I’m thinking about … and okay, wrap your head around this. Have a conversation with someone, interact with them ’cause you can’t wander away, [00:20:30] at the same time, have an internal dialogue of what’s the story that we’re discussing here, where are we going, how are we doing, how are we doing on time, how are we doing on recording levels, and then run the conversation of 100 different people. Every person you know, every friend that you can think of, who is sitting behind you listening who has questions or things they want clarified but can’t speak because they’re not here. So I’m listening to Kristen give me her answer and then I’m thinking oh, well this person would have no idea what that means, or you just used an acronym, or all these different … try to have [00:21:00] that conversation.

Craig: So I forget exactly where, it might be actually from Cal that I learned that idea of trying to actually imagine a particular person, not just what’s the audience want, but what does a particular person want? And I have a couple that I go to in my head that are archetypes that I can think of, like specific people that I know who fit those types, and I think, what would they ask, or when would they bullshit? Like what’s gonna happen? So I really enjoyed listening to other people teach about how they interview. There was also [00:21:30] a Creative Live course that I watched that had a guy who took apart how to create … it’s called, How To Power Your Podcast with Storytelling, and I forget the gentleman’s name who did the course. The course is okay. I’d recommend it if you’re into podcasting.

Craig: And he goes over how to use structure and talks about picking apart … it’s like an audio clip that they published, and then show you the raw audio, and show you what they changed and how they changed it, and it talks about how to tell a story using the audio format. So there’s really a lot to it. I’m really enjoying [00:22:00] digging into all of that. There’s a particularly amazing story that Cal Fussman told in a Tim Ferriss episode, which I will fourth hand repeat because it really just drove home the power of, if you do it right when you’re interviewing, it is extremely powerful. Cal Fussman interviewed Mikhail Gorbachev in 1993 or something shortly after the fall, and he had a half hour scheduled with him in Louisiana, [00:22:30] and he was at a hotel and he had all his equipment, and this is just Cal with a tape recorder and he’s gonna do a written piece for a big famous magazine, I think it was The New Yorker.

Craig: So he gets his appointed time, he’s there and Gorbachev isn’t there and he’s waiting, he’s waiting, and then his assistant says, “Oh, he’s running behind, you’re only gonna have 20 minutes.” And, “Okay, I can still do it.” And the time got shorter and shorter until they literally gave him five minutes. And Cal’s like, “There’s no way I can record enough material in five minutes to capture enough to write an article.” He’s like, “I’m screwed.” But Cal just [00:23:00] put on his working pants and went in with Gorbachev … I can’t imagine … and sat down and said to him, “What’s one lesson that your father taught you that really has stuck with you and served you well throughout your whole life?” And he said, Gorbachev looked at him and went, “Oh, you’re actually gonna really talk about me and you’re interested in me and you really want to know?” So Gorbachev told a story about an ice cream cup.

Craig: And I’m not gonna tell the story, but it’s really like a poignant, awesome story. Gorbachev told him this story, and he took like four and a half minutes. [00:23:30] And Cal was just thinking, “This is great. I just had the experience of a lifetime in a five minute conversation and heard an awesome story, learned something, this is really cool. I’m not gonna get to write my article, but hey, this is awesome.” Assistant comes in, says, “Excuse me Mr. Gorbachev, it’s time to go meet the mayor of Louisiana for the beginning of the parade,” and Gorbachev says, “Five more minutes. Five more minutes,” and pushes the PA out, and Cal asks his next question. And Cal said he got like 30 minutes with him, and the parade or whatever got delayed 30 minutes and the whole town waited because Gorbachev wanted to talk to Cal.

Craig: [00:24:00] And my takeaway from that was like okay, this isn’t just two people talking. It’s, if two people can talk and manage to make a connection, then that’s gonna be really powerful. And I’ve had, I don’t know, 28 conversations now with people where in the middle of the conversation, you have this little meta, meta, meta flash where you’re like, “Whoa, this is so awesome to get to sit down and talk to this person like this.” And if I had come at it with like, the very first interview that I did, I had a literal written out list of questions and I went down the list and I read the questions to them one by [00:24:30] one, and I stuck to my ordering. I did that on my first one, and it was okay, but it was just a “Just the facts, ma’am, thank you,” kind of interchange.

Craig: And then along the way, listening to other people interview, people who do it well, people who do it wrong, people who don’t … sometimes you have to just turn left and go, “Wait, that’s really interesting, we’re going that way.” And that’s the biggest thing that I’ve learned. Now, I got all that, I learned that all from other people.

Kristen: So Craig, what’s the best lesson that stuck with you from your childhood that your father gave you?

Craig: Well played. [00:25:00] Ooh, best lesson. Oh, okay, all right, all right. Best lesson. Let me see. How do I tell this without … I can’t give away too many details, but I don’t know what the statute of limitations is on some things. So I had a … okay, let me make sure, let me track this down. I had a job when I was in high school and I worked behind the scenes in an ice cream store making ice cream. And I got paid hourly, so I was going in earlier and earlier in the summer just because there was plenty of work to do, and I would just show up earlier and earlier. And [00:25:30] the person who ran the whole place got used to me just showing up at like 2:00, and then 1:00, and then 12:30. I was the guy who just, do this, do that, let me jump in there.

Craig: And one day I showed up on time, which was actually 5:30 or something, like four hours later than I had been coming in every day for weeks. Right? So whatever, okay, fine. This person isn’t the person that I directly reported to for my job, that was somebody else. I had told that person I wasn’t coming in. I said, “I’m gonna be in on [00:26:00] time today.” So I come in, and this person who is a generation up, whatever, had a bad day, I don’t know, lost his shit and yelled at me. Like, (gibberish). And I’m like, what the heck? And I was probably 16 or 17 at the time, went back to my job half in tears, I’m like (gibberish).

Kristen: Yeah, you’re on time.

Craig: Yeah. Well, it’s just like, young kid, lost my crap. But got yelled at by an adult, like yelled at, yelled at [00:26:30] by somebody who was known to have a bit of a temper. Okay, fine. It’s 10, 15 minutes later. The same person came back to me. I was still in a huff ’cause I’m a kid. Came back to me and said … I don’t remember the exact, but basically apologized and said, “I’m sorry. I talked to,” the person that actually managed me, “I talked to so-and-so, and I realized that you’re actually not supposed to be here until …” I was actually five minutes earlier, but basically said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that you were actually coming in early all that time, and I shouldn’t have yelled at you.”

Craig: And said, “It was inappropriate.” So my point being that he actually … to me, [00:27:00] a real apology is not like, “Please forgive me.” That’s not an apology. An apology is like, “I’m sorry. Here’s what I did wrong. Particularly this part was inappropriate.” So he apologized. We have a great thing, I have respect for the guy, I still know him, fine. That’s a story. I went home and told this story to my dad.

Kristen: Oh boy.

Craig: Okay, like came home at 11 o’clock at night. So you asked me what, here’s the lesson. I came home, told that story to my dad, and my dad knows all these people, ’cause I’ve been telling stories from my job. So I’m gonna use a fake first name. So I came home and I said, “Oh, [00:27:30] you’re not gonna believe what happened to me today. I went in and I showed up on time, and Bob screamed at me, oh son of a (gibberish), and then he came back later and had the nerve to apologize. (gibberish) I didn’t say anything,” and my dad looked at me and said, “It takes a real man to apologize when he’s made a mistake.” And I was crushed like a bug. Just oh, because that makes me the expletive for not taking the apology honestly. So I was like, that’s the greatest … yeah. Know when [00:28:00] to apologize, and real men know when to apologize. That was the greatest lesson. Final question?

Kristen: And of course the final question, three words to describe your practice?

Craig: All right, so I’m like oh gee, I think she’ll ask me that question. I didn’t come up with an answer in advance. I am in love with Elet Hall’s answer, break all the rules. But I’m not gonna be that cheesy. So I’m [00:28:30] gonna say that I particularly like … I have a bunch of wrist bands, right … I have a wrist band that says, [French 00:28:36], which is Strength, Honor, and … [French 00:28:42] is a little tricky, but it’s basically community. A little bit more to it than community, but it’s three French words. So strength, dignity, and community. And those are three things that I really like because a lot of times, the problem for me is, I’m pretty good at personal strength, personal dignity, but [00:29:00] community … oh, I forgot about the other people on the planet.

Craig: So I have trouble remembering that I need to … it’s not like you have to tolerate other people, like there’s eight billion other people that you should be interacting and learning from. So the ideas of strength and dignity and community are really important to me because it reminds me like Craig, this is the thing that you suck at. You really suck at the interpersonal skills. I’m really good at being the class clown kind of thing. I’m great at that, but I’m not so good at actually interacting [00:29:30] with the community. So that’s one of the things that the podcast really forces me to do, and it’s really fun just to have a one-on-one interaction with someone, to get to talk to them and get to know them, so that’s kind of my, I would say strength, dignity, and community, only because maximum effort is only two words. I broke that wristband, snapped, had to make another one, three dollars.

Speaker 1: This was episode 25. For more information on this episode, go to moversmindset.com/25. [00:30:00] While you’re there, please consider supporting this project by becoming an insider. Thank you for listening.

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