On design inspiration and imagining lines

Craig: So, I’m not an expert in construction or especially not an expert in gym design, although I’ve played in a bunch of gyms. And one of the things that strikes me, is your ideas about designing lines, like coming at the design of a space by imagining what people are going to do in that space in those lines.

That’s kind of controversial, some people look at that and say, “No, that’s the wrong … That’s the exact opposite of what parkour or whatever you want to call it, ADD, that’s the exact opposite of what that [00:24:30] is. And, I’m just wondering, why do you believe so strongly that designing lines is something that you should be doing when you’re building these built spaces?

Andy: I think that, whenever you go out to a space, anybody who has scouted out new spaces should be able to relate with … You see this spot and it looks beautiful and it’s got hand rails and it’s got different levels and it looks amazing. And then you get there and you’re like, “I’m going to jump to … Oh, man I can’t really jump to that, because that thing’s there” or “Oh, I’ll go over this way then … No, I can’t [00:25:00] really do that.” You’ll see spots that hit that child-like nature that we were referring to. And though it calls to you, when you get there, there’s not a whole lot that you can do there.

Craig: Yeah, what is that crazy epic thing that we all … We know it when we see it, when you see that epic line, you’re like, “That’s the thing.” Now, why is that only available in some places?

Andy: Yeah, so when that’s not available, that’s a spot that was not designed well [00:25:30] for parkour, right?

Craig: Right.

Andy: If there is a way to design well, then there’s got to be a way to design poorly, this is one of the ways that I think is that. If it’s not … If you have everything that’s four feet apart, then you can jump over it and you go to an eight foot thing, right? But then the next jump, if you want to go bigger than that you’ve got to go … From now, from eight to twelve feet.

So, that’s means that you’ve got to run to do it and maybe there’s no run, right? So, [00:26:00] having … When I sit down to do this, I’ll look at there’s … This thing is four feet away so what can I do with that. And I can think of 15 things that I can do with that. So then I say, “Well, if I put this wall there can I still do that?” And I’m like, “Well, no, but I can do this other 20 things,” right? So, then now because that wall’s there the space is not the same way- It’s not designed the same way, but it’s designed in a way that has more options. [00:26:30] So, then I’ll say, “Well, what if I put this wall here, because that wall was good, this wall is good, let’s put this wall here.”

Craig: Yeah.

Andy: Well, now I just lost about 30 of my options.

Craig: So, you’re saying it’s more about the designing adds to the options rather than takes away from the options. You’re not imagining how the mover has to move through the space, you’re trying to imagine how many different ways they could move through the space.

Andy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, so I don’t want to be constrictive, but I do want to say there is a sweet rail- [00:27:00] pre right over here, right?

Craig: Right, yeah.

Andy: There’s a sweet thing that I can do, I designed that, I put that in there, that was my plan there’s a sweet rail-pre. And now … Because I did this at Beast Coast, the year that I did that, I designed it and I said, “I’m gonna have someone kong this plank and grab this rail”, and I was like, “Yeah, that’s gonna be cool”. And then people did and I was like, “Yeah, that’s cool”. But then-

Craig: Yeah, they saw it, you didn’t tell them, right-

Andy: I didn’t tell them.

Craig: You just built it in, of course they saw it.

Andy: Then after that, [00:27:30] I saw people lining up to do kong fronts to that rail. Right? And then I saw kong fronts to grab the rail right? And then I saw people doing hands and toes dash over that thing, coming out, right? I saw people that were just balancing along the side of it and they were doing all the laché to balance to land on the thing. And I saw a ton of movement, so I’m not going to be able to envision everything, right, and I don’t want to. [00:28:00] I know that there’s more, right?

Craig: Right.

Andy: But you can … if I sit down and say there is easily 30 things that I can do here, then that’s probably a good spot.

Craig: A good line, right?

Andy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, then that just opens up opportunities. In that fashion, I look for very basic lines that I can do, right? So if there is 30 very basic things to do there, then it’s probably a good spot because you can always intricate [00:28:30] your movements.

Craig: Yeah, a lot of times you can … What is one, two, three can kind of become six in one move, you can just go right over it, you can always up the ante.

Andy: But in the other sense, if you design something where you can only … It’s got this weird diagonal log, sticking out right next to a bar with a wall up against it, that becomes something that is more like dead space. So, maybe you can come up with this absolutely beautiful … Maybe there’s four things that you can do there that are [00:29:00] just unreasonably amazing, right?

But that’s it. You just can’t really do more than that, right? So, that becomes something where now all you’re doing is crawling around on the floor under a space, because that’s the fifth thing, right? Because there’s always something else you can do, but it’s not … There’s no lines-

Craig: Nothing really inspiring, it’s not going to call to you, right?

Andy: It’s not going to call to you, it’s not going to be something that you want to show anyone that you’ve done. It’s not truly an accomplishment [00:29:30] to you whenever you train in that spot, because it looks more like a broom closet than it does … right?

Craig: Right. So, what I love most about this other than talking, what I love most about the podcast, is being able to ask people questions and then they open this door and I get a glimpse at a whole nother world and sometimes it’s really scary what goes on in people’s heads. But a lot of times it’s really interesting and I’m sitting here talking to Andy and I’m thinking, “Wait a second, wait a second, the gym is 11,000 square feet …?

Andy: Yes.

Craig: How many lines [00:30:00] are there in there that you’ve actually thought about?

Andy: Oh my gosh. In every spot, I have … In any place that you’re standing in the gym I have envisioned … one, two … Front, back, side to side and every diagonal.

Craig: Oh, yeah, [00:30:19] all the cardinals, right, right.

Andy: Yeah, so I’ve done every … In any place that you can stand-

Craig: Right.

Andy: In the gym I have planned lines for every one of those. Including, you standing and you move [00:30:30] over one foot, you got another set-

Craig: Yeah, some of the spaces are phone booth sized, some of the spaces are card table size and then there’s a couple of … The reason I asked that question is there’s a couple of neat spots where you go up on something and it’s not a 4 x 4, it’s maybe 10 inches by 10 inches and it … You’re like, you get on it and instead of being like, “Oh, what do I do now”? I get on it and I go, “Wow, if I was any good I could do all these things.” And I didn’t really think it, when I first did that, I didn’t think about, “I wonder if Andy thought all of this stuff,” I just thought you threw all this stuff in there and turned the blender on and then hit produce.

Andy: Yeah, [00:31:00] with my gym I had four … So, I was designing while I was building, but I designed four months before I built. And I was just constantly designing and re-iterating-

Craig: Did you do it in your head, did you do it on CAD or how did you do it, what-

Andy: 3-D, I used Google SketchUp – Because it’s free- And it’s easy to draw in. I’m … I have currently used … Now I can use more advanced ones, but I still … Google [00:31:30] SketchUp’s the best place to just-

Craig: Good enough, GE, right?

Andy: Yeah. But, yeah, I have the whole place down to the inch, down to the eighth inch, built in Google SketchUp and every line … I’ll just sit there with a tape measure and lay it out.

Is there a story you would like to share?

(This question is part of the “Story Time!” project.)

Craig: One of my favorite questions is something that I call the story time project, which is where I ask people, Andy, is there a story you’d like to share with us?

Andy: I could talk about this nice young … This 5-6 year old [00:32:00] autistic girl, who was non verbal, has been coming to our gym for a while and I’ve been coaching for a long time, but I haven’t worked with special needs. Not really. And I sat down with her and I tried to learn who she was a little bit and she’s been coming back with her parents, thought that we worked well together.

Because she couldn’t hold her weight up with her hands, her feet kind of turned in, she had stump feet [00:32:30] in the sense that she couldn’t point her toes, her feet looked fine. Maybe they were a little bit slanted, but she didn’t use them. So, she’s been coming in for a while, maybe a couple months after we opened and she would just come in for open gym.

And I would say, “You know what let’s … She needs to be able to hold to this bar” and her mom’s like, ” Well, she can’t hold her bar, she’s special needs.” And I’m like, “Well, first thing that we’re going to is teach her that she can’t climb with knees and elbows in here”. And every [00:33:00] time … I would just sit there with her for 15 minutes or so, she’s trying to climb on top of stuff and I wouldn’t … Every time she put her knee up, I wouldn’t let her.

And eventually I put her feet up there and then take them down, then she’d put her feet up there and she got it. And we’d hang her from a bar, we’d put her hands on a bar, I put my hands on top of her hands and just hold them there and just let her dangle there.

And now from just teaching her body how to move as opposed to trying to talk to her or anything like that, [00:33:30] she is now able to hang and swing from a bar. She is jumping up and down on the trampoline, she can jump into the foam pit. She couldn’t jump at all, she can jump two things now, she can climb up on top of everything in the gym and climb down. She uses the knees and elbows now and then still, but we’re working on it.

Craig: That’s Andy’s pet peeve. No knees and elbows.

Andy: Yes, the big one. But she is now because of that way ahead of her schedule, she’s made [00:34:00] huge improvements. And she is talking here and there. She will- Randomly when you catch her off guard, be able to say words, but then you ask her to repeat it and she can’t, because she’s thinking about it too much. But her parents have just sworn by us and we’re trying to figure out how to develop that into a special needs program and work with the little people more. But it’s been [00:34:30] huge for her, for sure.

Craig: And hugely rewarding, I’d imagine, too, right?

Andy: It’s pretty cool.

012 – Interview with Elet Hall

WAIT! If you want to read the entire transcript as you listen, GO TO THE FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT FIRST and then start the media player from there.

Episode Summary

Elet Hall takes time out from a motorcycle engine rebuild to discuss his approach to training (and not training), challenge, risk, danger, consequences, and why he walked away from American Ninja Warrior. Along the way, we talk about Lyme disease, and his work with the Bay Area Lyme Foundation, before he shares his _four_ words to describe his practice.

References

Guest introduction

Craig: Hello, I’m Craig Constantine.

Elet: And I’m Elet Hall.

Craig: Elet Hall has been described as intense or driven and at one time had a Tinder profile that said simply, “Do you think you can keep up?” In reality, he’s a free spirited, outdoor loving thinker. Who Sevinch candidly described as surprising loving and smarter than most people are aware. Welcome Elet.

Elet: Thanks Craig.

On lessons learned

Craig: Now that you’ve been away from Ninja Warrior for a few years, what are your thoughts, things that you’ve taken away [00:00:30] from that or things that you’d want to share with the parkour community in large?

Elet: I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned from Ninja Warrior, especially because a lot of people in parkour have heard of some of my more negative experiences with the show, is just that it doesn’t matter why somebody shows up. It doesn’t matter why they come to a parkour class. It doesn’t matter why they come into your gym.

There’s a pretty major narrative between parkour and Ninja Warrior, it almost seems like a more competitive thing that parkour [00:01:00] and it’s practitioners feel underserved by major media outlets. They see the success of Ninja Warrior and people associate the things that we do with Ninja Warrior and rightfully so. People say, “Well all of our shows haven’t worked and we don’t do Ninja Warrior and we don’t.” When somebody shows up to your gym and they want to take a lesson and they ask where’s your warped wall and people get uppity about it or they say, “We are parkour not Ninja Warrior,” or likewise, “We are parkour not gymnastics.”

It doesn’t matter why somebody [00:01:30] shows up. They are there on part of their journey to improve themselves. Who cares why they’re motivated. They’re there to learn from you.

Craig: For some reason that brought them to you.

Elet: It brought them through your door and it doesn’t matter if you have the warped wall. You can say to them, “Hey, we don’t do exactly that but let me show you what we do and let’s show you what it can do for you.” Because there are a lot of guys who’ve been, and girls too who’ve been successful in the show come from a parkour background. It’s done a lot to get the word parkour out there despite their best efforts not to let us talk about [00:02:00] it.

That’s a whole different topic. When somebody shows up, if somebody– when I was a personal trainer– if somebody shows up, I ask them why they showed up because that matters to me. If it’s not the reason I would have showed up to the gym, I’m not saying, “Oh, sorry. You’re not good enough for my training. The reason you’re here isn’t the right one.”

Craig: Yeah. That’s crazy.

Elet: It’s just like I understand the intrinsic value of what we’re doing and if you want to take this and try to go make a million dollars from it on Ninja Warrior, that’s fine, that’s great. I hope you have a good time and I hope you learn something.

On training methodology

Craig: I don’t normally [00:02:30] share my stories on the podcast but I’m gonna let this one in. There was a thing, which we affectionately call the Williamsburg Bridge QM Challenge and when we got up at the ‘O dark thirty hour to leave for that, you were asleep on the floor and had absolutely no interest in joining us.

Elet: None. None.

Craig: Up until that moment, I had always thought that maybe you were this gung-ho accepter of challenges and now I’m realizing you have a very particular way that you approach things and I’m wondering if you could [00:03:00] unpack a little about your personal training methodology and how you approach thinking about training.

Elet: I guess this is gonna be a little bit of the parkour origin story. It’s gonna have to cross that road. As dumb as that gets in interviews, as often as it’s done in interviews.

I ran into parkour first through a military fitness forum. I got into it through the idea of using it to complete obstacles and complete goals, complete missions, [00:03:30] that type of challenge. As my interest in it grew, I got a different idea of it and as I grew, I was really researching into the ideas surrounding physical education through peek athleticism. I became a personal trainer at the age of 19. I went to school to study physical education as a pre-athletic training degree. I was really, really interested in understanding [00:04:00] how we react to challenge biologically and physiologically.

There’s also sports psychology, there’s all of that. These are kind of the things that the scientific communities that surround our talk of embracing challenge is these are the things that happen. We have the subjective experience, which is our embracing of challenge and then we have the objective result, what happens to you. Getting up that early and QMing that far [00:04:30] and knowing what that’s gonna do to my body and the subjective experience of the rest of that day and understanding where I want to go with my training, it just doesn’t take me there.

You talked about earlier that people would describe me as intense or driven and it’s like, absolutely sometimes if it’s something, frankly, I give a shit about. If I don’t, if it’s not inline with my goal because I have specific set goals, then it’s not a thing that I’m gonna spend [00:05:00] the energy on. We have a finite amount of energy, we all do. We have-

Craig: Finite time.

Elet: Yeah. If I want to spend my time training for the enjoyment of my subjective experience, I’m not gonna take myself out there and do that. Whereas, if it was a long hike in the woods that I go all day without food and water, sure, I’d love that but to go crawl around on the cement in the city in the rain, it just wasn’t where I was that day. That’s not to say that another day I wouldn’t be down to do it, it was just that day and it changes every day.

Yeah, I have [00:05:30] a particular idea of where I want to go with my training and I’ve done enough studying and research to be able to understand the progressive steps that will get me there.

Craig: I think there’s an old children’s story about the city mouse versus the country mouse and it occurs to me that the difference between the quadrupedal challenge across the Williamsburg Bridge versus an all day walk in the woods with no food or water, that’s a perfect example of the difference in the two and I’m wondering why you’re drawn to one versus the other and what iS the value difference that you see [00:06:00] in those two approaches.

Elet: I think that’s a really interesting thing and one that has kind of always separated my practice from a lot of other people’s is most of what I do is out in nature. Not necessarily in the ‘Evolve. Move. Play‘, Rafe Kelley, MoveNat, Erwan Le Corre type but it’s just where I am. If we’re looking at parkour as an answer to challenges or puzzles or things that we put in our way [00:06:30] then the challenges in front of me exist here and they’re the ones I enjoy.

Also, when it really gets down to it, what’s the point of all of it? It’s because we enjoy it. This is just happens to be what it enjoy. It could be history, it could be predisposition. It could just be what I’m used to. When I’m in the city, I’m not enjoying myself most of the time. When I’m in the country, I’m enjoying myself. When I go on a long duration [00:07:00] challenge like that, I end up having way more fun in the woods and when I come home, the feeling that I have is very different than after a day in the city.

The big part about that too, is when you’re on the flat ground, when you’re on the concrete, there begins the idea of repetition. When you’re in the woods, there is no repetition. No step is the same.

Craig: Trail running versus path running.

Elet: Yeah and I don’t pound pavement, man, I don’t road run. I never did, I never grew up doing that. I hate it. It’s [00:07:30] mind numbing to me.

For me, being outside is in and of itself rewarding. When I do my practice, when I practice my parkour outside it’s doubly rewarding. I’m interacting with — I’ll make a little value statement here — where we should be and where we are made to be. Where our 10 fingers and toes and big monkey brains evolved and that is fulfilling in and of itself but then also I’m getting stronger, also I’m flexing mental [00:08:00] muscles solving problems.

When I’m constantly stimulated in that sense and not overstimulated. I’m a very auditory person and man, if we’re gonna go QM across a bridge, I’m gonna be hearing trucks and cars the entire time, I’m gonna be hearing other people, I’m gonna be rubbing my hands in their shoe gunk on the ground. That’s not my understanding of a good time and not to take away from anybody’s whose is. We are all here pursuing our own idea and that’s great for you. It’s just not me.

On footwear and getting back to barefoot

Craig: In that [00:08:30] line of more natural training, what are your thoughts on footwear? I’ve been getting into less and less structure in shoes and more minimalist type footwear. I know there’s a lot of nerves in your feet and there’s a lot of some people call it neurological nourishment that can happen through your feet. What do you typically wear just in general and what are your thoughts on hiking with hiking shoes versus hiking in thin, Vibram type of shoes.

Elet: Yeah, I think that’s a really important thing. Like you said, there is all of this neural nourishment that comes through your [00:09:00] feet and one of the big things I’ve noticed from doing a lot of running outside is just how aware I am of my feet.

My selection of footwear changes based on what I’m doing, changes based on the goals. I just came off of a show series 20 days long at the Canadian National Exhibition where I was wishing every day I had thicker shoes just because of the nature of what we were doing. We’re doing performance, we’re doing shoWs, we’re taking big drops, heavy impact-

Craig: [crosstalk 00:09:27].

Elet: … on manmade surface. [00:09:30] But when I’m in the woods, there’s so much more I feel when I’m in a thin pair of shoes. Currently, I’m wearing a pair of Merrell trail gloves and they’re thin, they’re chunky, great grip in the woods on wet rocks and all of that and that’s fantastic. I don’t do the majority of my training barefoot but I have kind of a fun story about a time I was hiking a mountian down in Virginia and the way up is super fun, lots of rocks. It’s this mountian called Old Rag in Shenandoah National Forrest. It’s one of the most popular hikes in the United States I think actually.

[00:10:00] It’s really rocky and it’s beautiful and the top is just this granite dome, barely any trees, all these giant boulders, great parkour opportunities. Just really enjoyable, beautiful, hike. 360 degree panoramas. On the way down, you’re going back down this really rocky, heavy impact trail and by the time I got down there, probably about three quarters the way, my knees were really starting to ache. It’s a long day, it’s seven miles up, seven miles down. It’s all elevation change, it’s not a flat spot.

Coming down, I was starting to get sore and as [00:10:30] I get down towards the bottom, I take my shoes off and by the time I hit the parking lot at the bottom, my knees don’t hurt anymore. That’s just kind of a very in your face example of, “Oh, here I’m tired and oh I’m achy,” a lot of it is just the balance of the muscles being stimulated in the way that they’re pulling on the joints.

Craig: Removing your shoes like you get back to the proprioception input. That’s something your body could change whatever it was that was causing the knee pain.

Elet: Well and a big part of it too is you’re not doing things that without padding it’d hurt because you might still be working through the same [00:11:00] movement pattern that would cause pain without padding with a shoe on but of you get rid of that ability to pad that sensory nerve down on your heel, you’re not gonna drop your heel onto the ground. When you step down off of a rock, you’re gonna reach first with your fore foot

Craig: … right. Ball of your foot …

Elet: …. and you’re gonna use those extra joints. You’ve got three joint in your toes you got a joint in the middle of your foot. You’re midfoot joint that doesn’t get used when you use a shoe.

Then there’s a minor amount of movement through the talor bones in the back of your foot. Those aren’t [00:11:30] getting pulled into play at all when you’re wearing a shoe. There’s so many more shock absorption joints that just get used when you take your shoes off and all those muscles get stimulated and that’s gonna get a little too deep into psycho-sematic pain, but that feeling that your brain is getting of, “Oh, I’m in pain,” doesn’t get stimulated because things are being used right. We don’t want to get any deeper than that ’cause that’s a hell hole of the science and neuro science.

Just kind of getting into the [00:12:00] fact that bare foot is what you’re supposed to do, it’s where we came from. It’s not gonna work if we’re trying to push 12 foot running precisions onto a metal rail, that would take years to develop, which if that’s your goal, that’s your goal. But as far subjective experience goes, man when I’m doing my performances, I want thicker shoes.

Craig: I think going even further with this train of thought on feet, there’s also the issue of how your bones get set. I’ve been recently, over a couple years, working on trying to sit comfortably in a deep squat just [00:12:30] because I think it’s a good movement pattern to be able to do. I’m finding that it’s a lot more complicated than just muscular length and just normal flexibility.

I’m wondering if people need to reassess their goals for barefoot. If you decide, “I want to train bare foot,” you might have to have go back to how you began moving as child and realize that your bones in your feet are now set a certain way.

Elet: Definitely and I think that also kind of ties back into training in nature as well because if you decide to make that shift, [00:13:00] you’ve got to reassess the surfaces you’re working with and not necessarily making things smaller but using more small movements to get the same job done.

If you’re looking to train bare foot or if you’re looking to train outside, if you go out and you push your maximum precision ’cause you know, hey man, every time I can jump 12 feet, it’s not gonna work out there. Why, because it moves, its wet and it’s gonna break.

Craig: It’s off-camber and it’s got a funny texture.

Elet: That [00:13:30] could mean your feet or it could mean the surface you’re landing on. You’ve got to take it down and you got to reassess the situation.

Also, kind of the idea of that is different. Why are you doing what you’re doing? What are you trying to get out of it? Are you looking for a healthier body or are you looking to change your style? Both are good experience, all of it I hope, but just realize the reality of the situation. You could just go walk in the woods for a mile bare foot and when you come back, [00:14:00] your feet are gonna hurt. Your skin’s not tough, the muscles aren’t well developed. You’ve got these weird motor patterns that are ingrained from thousands and thousands of hours of doing something shod, and maybe also on concrete.

If this is new to you, this is changing everything. You’ve got to take not just two steps back but five and approach it. Like you were saying, the stuff that you did as a child and realize how that fits in. When I go and teach at these [00:14:30] bushcraft school events, which is something that I’m involved in a lot, is this bushcrafting community. I teach a movement class called From the Ground Up. We start with ground movement and we then work from there to transitions to quadrapedie, and we work from there into low two foot positions,

Craig: … yeah, ‘low gait’ …

Elet: … bipedal positions and then to walking, moving silently, which is especially important in our train of thought, stocking, reach, escape all of that. Then we get into jumping and running and then we get into climbing [00:15:00] into the trees and then transitioning between trees.

It’s kind of that same mentality of just approaching movement in the woods, it’s from the ground up. You’ve got to have a foundation.

On motorcycles, and taking things (and knowledge!) apart

Craig: I think those who know you, know that you really love motorcycles and I’ve noticed with a lot of people, myself included who are really into parkour are also really into fixing things or taking things apart and understanding the nuanced details.

I’m wondering, first of all how you got into motorcycles and what your thoughts are and how those two loves sort of dovetailed so well.

Elet: [00:15:30] I got my motorcycle when I was 17 years old. I had seen this particular Nighthawk 700 that I’m working on right now in a book at the age of 10 or 12. It was a book, The Beginner’s Motorcycle Guide. I read a section on … it was printed in the ’80s this bike was new at the time, this was a 1984. They were saying, here’s the top 10 beginner motorcycles. This was on the list. For whatever reason, I was 10 years old, I don’t remember the details but it just [00:16:00] stuck in my mind.

Craig: It became iconic, right.

Elet: I loved the way it looked, I knew it was a good beginner bike and then one of my best friends bought a motorcycle when he was 18, I was a year younger and I rode it a few times and I decided, “Hey, I need to get my own bike.”

I’ve ridden dirt bikes on and off and stuff but never like really, really into it. I bought this bike from a guy up in Pennsylvania and fell in love. It was something that I just continued to pursue all over and I didn’t have a big budget [00:16:30] so I started to work on it myself and I didn’t know what I was doing at the time. I needed some experience. This particular bike got ridden for four years, thrown in my parents garage and Then ignored for the next five or six. I’m just getting back to it now.

It kind of grew from that and I think the big thing that attracts me to working with my hands, whether it’s motorcycles, whether it’s bushcrafting, whether it’s building, woodworking, I kind of do all of this different stuff with my hands is [00:17:00] the understanding of the world around you through the nerves in your hands. This is a big thing in parkour.

Craig: … tactile feedback that physical knowledge.

Elet: Yeah, we crave that. We crave contact. Contact with the physical world. This is a very intricate process but one that is very understandable when you get into it.

I don’t think … There’s no mystery to being a mechanic. There’s no mystery to woodworking. There is just getting in touch with a process, embracing that process and the beginning to understand where you are and just getting familiar. [00:17:30] It’s so nourishing mentally.